38 replies to this topic

[Kevin]

i feel like you dont actually watch jennings play...

I do understand where he's coming from. Jennings is very likable, hardworking, and when he's on, he's really ON. There haven't been many players in recent Milwaukee history who are as exciting as Jennings when he's draining all his shots. But the problem is the consistency in his offense. He's still not great around the rim, and unfortunately he doesn't always get the calls, which is when he either resorts to the floater, which he still isn't great with, or shooting long range jumpers, which are very hit-or-miss. 

 

Even though he's a high volume shooter, I definitely wouldn't call him selfish or a chucker; it's apparent that he wants to run the offense and look for others. He just doesn't quite have the vision of some of the top tier point guards. The passing ability is there, but not always the vision. 

 

I would like to re-sign him, but it depends on what we pay. He isn't worth top dollar, that's for sure.

[justryod3]

I do understand where he's coming from. Jennings is very likable, hardworking, and when he's on, he's really ON. There haven't been many players in recent Milwaukee history who are as exciting as Jennings when he's draining all his shots. But the problem is the consistency in his offense. He's still not great around the rim, and unfortunately he doesn't always get the calls, which is when he either resorts to the floater, which he still isn't great with, or shooting long range jumpers, which are very hit-or-miss. 

 

Even though he's a high volume shooter, I definitely wouldn't call him selfish or a chucker; it's apparent that he wants to run the offense and look for others. He just doesn't quite have the vision of some of the top tier point guards. The passing ability is there, but not always the vision. 

 

I would like to re-sign him, but it depends on what we pay. He isn't worth top dollar, that's for sure.

remember back to his rookie season when all he did was used his quickness to get to the basket and finish consistently while also driving and setting guys up. he is a small guard who has become a very good shooter so lately he has been relying on that to much but over time he will start (which he already has last couple games) to get back to driving and only shooting when open.

 

when he does that he is basically a scoring pg as well as passing pg because he is extremely un selfish. and you cant forget how hard hes worked on his defense. he is still young but everyone seems to forget that when throwing it out there that hes not "worth top dollar" or "isnt a true pg"

[Ted]

I do understand where he's coming from. Jennings is very likable, hardworking, and when he's on, he's really ON. There haven't been many players in recent Milwaukee history who are as exciting as Jennings when he's draining all his shots. But the problem is the consistency in his offense. He's still not great around the rim, and unfortunately he doesn't always get the calls, which is when he either resorts to the floater, which he still isn't great with, or shooting long range jumpers, which are very hit-or-miss. 

 

Even though he's a high volume shooter, I definitely wouldn't call him selfish or a chucker; it's apparent that he wants to run the offense and look for others. He just doesn't quite have the vision of some of the top tier point guards. The passing ability is there, but not always the vision. 

 

I would like to re-sign him, but it depends on what we pay. He isn't worth top dollar, that's for sure.

 

 

I cant think of a better way to accurately sum up Brandon Jennings. Hit the nail right on the head. I think you can live with the inconsistencies because when he's hot he's so electric and has so much energy you almost forget about the lows. He's not someone you want as the foundation of your franchise but I also think he is too valuable to let go for nothing, which is exactly why I was very upset with the Bucks for not coming up with that extension b4 the season started, coulda had him for 10,11 million now itll be much steeper than that and itll set back the franchise a bit

[Kevin]

remember back to his rookie season when all he did was used his quickness to get to the basket and finish consistently while also driving and setting guys up. he is a small guard who has become a very good shooter so lately he has been relying on that to much but over time he will start (which he already has last couple games) to get back to driving and only shooting when open.

 

when he does that he is basically a scoring pg as well as passing pg because he is extremely un selfish. and you cant forget how hard hes worked on his defense. he is still young but everyone seems to forget that when throwing it out there that hes not "worth top dollar" or "isnt a true pg"

 

He shot 42% at the rim in his rookie season though. That's not just bad, that's awful. He has improved over time, bumping it up to 57% last season, but it's still not consistent enough, and he still has trouble finishing at the rim with his right hand.

 

I didn't bring up his defense at all, but I've already agreed with you that his effort, at the very least, is excellent. But he is still a scoring guard. You don't take 15+ shots a game and not consider him a scoring guard. But that being said, I still don't call him a chucker but he definitely tries looking for others and setting up the offense. 

 

Yes, he's still young. But you're fooling yourself greatly if you think he's going to improve so dramatically that he'll be worth a max contract. He has the potential to be a good player, a good starting point guard. But he's not going to be a superstar. 

 

Like I said before, I love the guy lol. But you're misinterpreting my criticism for him as hate or something, because this is all valid criticism.

[jtcooky]

How did the Skiles leaving thread turn into a BJ bicker-fest?

 

But anyway, I'd rather have a polarizing "star" with swag than an injury prone, overpaid offensive or defensive specialist like we've had previously. Just have to hope that they don't try to overpay him this summer. I think if they were going to pay him stupid money though, they would have done it before the season.

[justryod3]

He shot 42% at the rim in his rookie season though. That's not just bad, that's awful. He has improved over time, bumping it up to 57% last season, but it's still not consistent enough, and he still has trouble finishing at the rim with his right hand.

 

I didn't bring up his defense at all, but I've already agreed with you that his effort, at the very least, is excellent. But he is still a scoring guard. You don't take 15+ shots a game and not consider him a scoring guard. But that being said, I still don't call him a chucker but he definitely tries looking for others and setting up the offense. 

 

Yes, he's still young. But you're fooling yourself greatly if you think he's going to improve so dramatically that he'll be worth a max contract. He has the potential to be a good player, a good starting point guard. But he's not going to be a superstar. 

 

Like I said before, I love the guy lol. But you're misinterpreting my criticism for him as hate or something, because this is all valid criticism.

people like you pay way to much attention to stats rather than actually watching the guy play

watch any nba game most players even the best ones use their dominant hand as much as possible which is exactly what jennings does

almost all of the best point guards in the league are shooting 15 shots a game while still averaging good assists numbers putting the scorer tag on them is ridiculous because as a point guards all these guys can do both, take what defense gives you

what i said about his defense was directed towards other guy

and considering your just looking at numbers you should think about the lack of talent around him over his career so far, he is scoring when he needs to and passing when he can people criticize him way to much.

[Kevin]

How did the Skiles leaving thread turn into a BJ bicker-fest?

 

But anyway, I'd rather have a polarizing "star" with swag than an injury prone, overpaid offensive or defensive specialist like we've had previously. Just have to hope that they don't try to overpay him this summer. I think if they were going to pay him stupid money though, they would have done it before the season.

Not a bicker-fest, just polite discussion lol. For once, there's no name calling or anything silly like that. 

 

But again, this isn't about how much we like Jennings, because yes, he's a very likable player, and it's fun watching him when he's got the swag going. The problem is how few and far between those moments are, and the fact that he's still likely the best player we've got. That's not good.

 

 

 

people like you pay way to much attention to stats rather than actually watching the guy play

watch any nba game most players even the best ones use their dominant hand as much as possible which is exactly what jennings does

almost all of the best point guards in the league are shooting 15 shots a game while still averaging good assists numbers putting the scorer tag on them is ridiculous because as a point guards all these guys can do both, take what defense gives you

what i said about his defense was directed towards other guy

and considering your just looking at numbers you should think about the lack of talent around him over his career so far, he is scoring when he needs to and passing when he can people criticize him way to much.

 

I watch him play quite often. The Bucks are my team, after all. But stats, when used in context, are appropriate as well, and are actually quite helpful. Yes, players often go to using their dominant hand, but Jennings is darn near incapable of using his right hand at all, which makes him predictable as far as how to defend him. And while his percentages at the rim have increased over his career, up to 57% last year, he still needs to be more consistent/reliable in that regard.

 

Again, call me out for using stats if you wish, but again, used in context, they don't lie. Jennings is a poor shooter who takes a LOT of shots, actually about 17 a game this year, and his True Shooting Percentage (TS%), the best indication of a player's efficiency as a scorer, is still bad at .511. And his assists are very middle of the pack considering the fact that he takes so many shots a game. 

 

The truth is that you're adoration of him as a fan is clouding the fact that, while he has improved, my previous comments about him aren't any less true: he's not a major star, and he's not worth max money.

 

And don't even bring up supporting cast. Really. Kyrie Irving has had a much worse supporting cast to work with and is doing vastly better than Jennings. Irving as a rookie has trumped anything Jennings has done. His defense sucks, and I guess he doesn't have a 55 point game to brag about, but otherwise has done more with less.

[justryod3]

Not a bicker-fest, just polite discussion lol. For once, there's no name calling or anything silly like that. 

 

But again, this isn't about how much we like Jennings, because yes, he's a very likable player, and it's fun watching him when he's got the swag going. The problem is how few and far between those moments are, and the fact that he's still likely the best player we've got. That's not good.

 

 

 

 

I watch him play quite often. The Bucks are my team, after all. But stats, when used in context, are appropriate as well, and are actually quite helpful. Yes, players often go to using their dominant hand, but Jennings is darn near incapable of using his right hand at all, which makes him predictable as far as how to defend him. And while his percentages at the rim have increased over his career, up to 57% last year, he still needs to be more consistent/reliable in that regard.

 

Again, call me out for using stats if you wish, but again, used in context, they don't lie. Jennings is a poor shooter who takes a LOT of shots, actually about 17 a game this year, and his True Shooting Percentage (TS%), the best indication of a player's efficiency as a scorer, is still bad at .511. And his assists are very middle of the pack considering the fact that he takes so many shots a game. 

 

The truth is that you're adoration of him as a fan is clouding the fact that, while he has improved, my previous comments about him aren't any less true: he's not a major star, and he's not worth max money.

 

And don't even bring up supporting cast. Really. Kyrie Irving has had a much worse supporting cast to work with and is doing vastly better than Jennings. Irving as a rookie has trumped anything Jennings has done. His defense sucks, and I guess he doesn't have a 55 point game to brag about, but otherwise has done more with less.

ok ill play the numbers game

 

http://www.hoopdata....ame=Monta Ellis

this year hes shooting 60 around the rim other years his number was higher but since he plays alongside jennings i thought id start there

 

http://www.hoopdata....me=Derrick Rose

58 around the rim last season, 60 would be his career high 

 

http://www.hoopdata....ssell Westbrook

55 

 

http://www.hoopdata....=Deron Williams

has a good start this season shot 55 last year

 

these are the big name scoring point guards who can all dunk the ball with ease making their numbers look much better compared to jennings who has to work for it.

 

alright now ill give you a couple of the smaller high scoring point guards similar to jennings

 

http://www.hoopdata....e=Stephen Curry

 

 

http://www.hoopdata....ame=Tony Parker

tony parker is one of the best point guards in the league shooting 64 around the rim, not far off from 57

 

http://www.hoopdata....me=Kemba Walker

shot 49 and 54 over his career so far playing without a good team around him similar to jennings

 

 

i could keep going but i feel like i made my point

playing the numbers game yea 40 % rookie year is low i was really referring to how creative he was around the basket. but to say that shooting 57 around the rim needs to be better for a small guy like him is ridiculous. i never said he was all star or is worth max contract i just think its wrong to say that he isnt worth at least a good contract or that he isnt on the edge of being an all star point guard and easily could be in the future

[Patti]

I know what everyone is saying and I totally agree that we would like to see Brandon "attack" the rim more often, but if you're Brandon that's probably not that easy to do. To do that often, what Brandon needs more than anything else is 3 inches and 30 lbs, but he's probably not going to get that either. 

 

Guess that's the challenge for Hammond.  Do we stay with the devil we know or go for the devil we don't?  If we stay with the little devil we know, then he's going to need more, bigger help at SG.  

 

I'm really sticking my neck out with this next comment, but I think Skiles liked having Salmons and Delfino, when they were playing well.  I think Skiles missed not having a player like them on the roster this year.  I think Delfino playing so well against the Bucks pushed Skiles over the edge. 

[Kevin]

ok ill play the numbers game

 

http://www.hoopdata....ame=Monta Ellis

this year hes shooting 60 around the rim other years his number was higher but since he plays alongside jennings i thought id start there

 

http://www.hoopdata....me=Derrick Rose

58 around the rim last season, 60 would be his career high 

 

http://www.hoopdata....ssell Westbrook

55 

 

http://www.hoopdata....=Deron Williams

has a good start this season shot 55 last year

 

these are the big name scoring point guards who can all dunk the ball with ease making their numbers look much better compared to jennings who has to work for it.

 

alright now ill give you a couple of the smaller high scoring point guards similar to jennings

 

http://www.hoopdata....e=Stephen Curry

 

 

http://www.hoopdata....ame=Tony Parker

tony parker is one of the best point guards in the league shooting 64 around the rim, not far off from 57

 

http://www.hoopdata....me=Kemba Walker

shot 49 and 54 over his career so far playing without a good team around him similar to jennings

 

 

i could keep going but i feel like i made my point

playing the numbers game yea 40 % rookie year is low i was really referring to how creative he was around the basket. but to say that shooting 57 around the rim needs to be better for a small guy like him is ridiculous. i never said he was all star or is worth max contract i just think its wrong to say that he isnt worth at least a good contract or that he isnt on the edge of being an all star point guard and easily could be in the future

His at the rim percentages have improved, I agree. And I can see that I was wrong there. But that doesn't discredit the fact that overall, he's a poor shooter/scorer, and his TS% indicates that. 

 

It's not as if I'm suggesting that he isn't worth something in the league right now. He's still worth a decent contract, to be sure, I'm hoping along the lines 8-9 million a year for three/four years. For him right now, I think that's pretty fair. 

 

He may be an All Star. I don't necessarily doubt that. But my point is that right now, he's still essentially considered the franchise player, and that's something that he'll never truly be capable of doing, or capable of living up to.

[Kevin]

I know what everyone is saying and I totally agree that we would like to see Brandon "attack" the rim more often, but if you're Brandon that's probably not that easy to do. To do that often, what Brandon needs more than anything else is 3 inches and 30 lbs, but he's probably not going to get that either. 

 

Guess that's the challenge for Hammond.  Do we stay with the devil we know or go for the devil we don't?  If we stay with the little devil we know, then he's going to need more, bigger help at SG.  

 

I'm really sticking my neck out with this next comment, but I think Skiles liked having Salmons and Delfino, when they were playing well.  I think Skiles missed not having a player like them on the roster this year.  I think Delfino playing so well against the Bucks pushed Skiles over the edge. 

 

The problem with Jennings and Ellis, to me, isn't so much the lack of aggressiveness, but that they tend to try and avoid contact when they drive to the rim. Which I can understand, seeing as how they're smaller guys and too much contact can certainly lead to injury, but at the same time it means they don't get to the foul line as much as they probably should. 

 

I agree that bringing in a big SG who can also shoot the basketball will be a big difference maker for Jennings. Even though he wasn't a great shooter, I loved seeing the Jennings/Livingston combination last year. Teams had a lot of trouble with it, and imagine how much more Jennings would have thrived if Livingston could consistently make the three ball.

 

As for the last part, it was apparent Skiles was unhappy and disagreed adamantly about how Kohl wanted Hammond to build this team. Kohl is so big on the idea of the Bucks being a playoff team, while Skiles just wanted to keep rebuilding, knowing this roster just didn't have what it took. It was a lose-lose situation for him, and I think he just got tired of being in the fire over it. 

[justryod3]

His at the rim percentages have improved, I agree. And I can see that I was wrong there. But that doesn't discredit the fact that overall, he's a poor shooter/scorer, and his TS% indicates that. 

 

It's not as if I'm suggesting that he isn't worth something in the league right now. He's still worth a decent contract, to be sure, I'm hoping along the lines 8-9 million a year for three/four years. For him right now, I think that's pretty fair. 

 

He may be an All Star. I don't necessarily doubt that. But my point is that right now, he's still essentially considered the franchise player, and that's something that he'll never truly be capable of doing, or capable of living up to.

 

see i think you are way off by saying he isnt a shooter or scorer, ive been saying this over and over lately but jennings a good 3 point shooter and he choses his shots very well some nights they dont go thats how all shooter are. the only problem is he forces alot of deep mid rangers that are very tough to consistently make. i reffered to his rookie season because he wasnt a really good shooter so he either shot the 3 ball wide open or took it all the way cause he is so quick and thats what i wanna see out of him and i think it would make a huge difference

[SillyBilly]

i feel like you dont actually watch jennings play...

 
I've watched him play hundreds of games. He's not as valuable to the success of the team as people seem to think, and the reasons are pretty simple.
 
Many games Jennings takes the most shots on the team even though he has a sub-par shooting percentage when compared to the league average. This years high volume poor shooting performance is not an anomaly, this has been the story in every one of his 3.5 seasons in the league. That's not a recipe for team success and is in itself a form of bad shot selection.
 
When Jennings isn't hitting shots he doesn't do much to positively contribute to the team such as creating assists or playing solid D. He has difficulty in executing the offense and CREATING offensive opportunities for other players which is the primary function of the pg position. This has been evident in several games this season in which Jennings is shooting poorly and the offensive execution visually and statistcally improves once Udrih or Ellis relieve Jennings of his duties.
 
Don't get me wrong, he's a good player in his own ways, the type of player that can HELP you get to the first round of the playoffs (so long as you have interior defenders that can cover for the defensive liability that he creates), BUT I want the Bucks to compete for Championships down the road, not playoff berths! Keeping a small, score first pg that shoots a low percentage on a pricey long-term contract definitely undermines our ability to acquire the talent necessary to contend. As a Milwaukee Bucks fan I've seen enough long-term contracts offered out to average or slightly above average (and even below average) players for the sake of making a run at the first round. Clearly the hope of just getting to the playoffs isn't drawing in fans. An NBA team  cannot contend without top-tier talent, BJ3s hot-cold jumpshooting is not top tier, and fans know it. The bucks need to hold out on offering significant longterm contracts until they can land top-tier talent even if it means a few meager years in between.

 

Thats my story and Im sticking to it!

[SillyBilly]

For me the difference between watching Jennings run the point and watching the leagues best is that I'm often yelling at Jennings for missing or being late on obvious (for a tv viewer) kickout, pick n pop, pick n roll, cutter and other passing opportunities. whereas some of the better passing pgs routinely make the obvious passes and also surprise the hell out of you with passes that weren't obvious even see from the birds-eye-view of a tv viewer.

[SillyBilly]

You can live in the dark ages and believe that statistics are irrelevant, but for those of us that value statistics the evidence that Jennings is not statistically in the top 15 for pgs in the league is here:

 

http://insider.espn....n/pg/order/true

 

Im calling Hammond to let him know first thing in the morning.

[Kevin]

see i think you are way off by saying he isnt a shooter or scorer, ive been saying this over and over lately but jennings a good 3 point shooter and he choses his shots very well some nights they dont go thats how all shooter are. the only problem is he forces alot of deep mid rangers that are very tough to consistently make. i reffered to his rookie season because he wasnt a really good shooter so he either shot the 3 ball wide open or took it all the way cause he is so quick and thats what i wanna see out of him and i think it would make a huge difference

But being a good shooter means little if your shot selection sucks, and Jennings definitely has poor shot selection. And if anything, now you're essentially saying that he has poor basketball IQ, in the sense that he forces too many shots. All this is a negative on him.

[justryod3]

But being a good shooter means little if your shot selection sucks, and Jennings definitely has poor shot selection. And if anything, now you're essentially saying that he has poor basketball IQ, in the sense that he forces too many shots. All this is a negative on him.

all i pointed out were the deep contested mid range shots he SOMETIMES takes, i didnt say anything else about his shot selection or basketball iq so right now you are just searching for whatever will make you seem like your right

 

fact is that if jennings were to take 5 shots a game people would complain, yet when he takes 15 shots a game people still complain. unless brandon jennings carries milwaukee to a championship you guys will complain. he is a small point guard who needs guys around him if you wanna see him play like a true pg. without the guys around him he has no choice to become a scorer. so stop complaining and blaming everything on him and critisizing him for everything he does.

 

i would be extremely disappointed considering he is all we have but i almost hope that he goes somewhere else next year somewhere that has alot of talent but needs a point guard, i gurantee he would explode as one of the better point guards in this leaugue

[SillyBilly]

all i pointed out were the deep contested mid range shots he SOMETIMES takes, i didnt say anything else about his shot selection or basketball iq so right now you are just searching for whatever will make you seem like your right

 

fact is that if jennings were to take 5 shots a game people would complain, yet when he takes 15 shots a game people still complain. unless brandon jennings carries milwaukee to a championship you guys will complain. he is a small point guard who needs guys around him if you wanna see him play like a true pg. without the guys around him he has no choice to become a scorer. so stop complaining and blaming everything on him and critisizing him for everything he does.

 

i would be extremely disappointed considering he is all we have but i almost hope that he goes somewhere else next year somewhere that has alot of talent but needs a point guard, i gurantee he would explode as one of the better point guards in this leaugue

 

You are not understanding the argument. We are not saying Jennings is the sole reason why the Bucks are not a really good team. We are saying that resigning him to a long-term contract would not be in the best interest of the Milwaukee Bucks if they have real aspirations to be a contender, because it would limit our ability to obtain real stars and solid role players.

 

He's mediocre statistically, mediocre as far as team play, and if we commit a big long contract to him we will likely continue to be a mediocre team. I think the fact that he plays astoundingly on occasion kind of tricks people into thinking he's a star when that clearly is not the case.

[Kevin]

You are not understanding the argument. We are not saying Jennings is the sole reason why the Bucks are not a really good team. We are saying that resigning him to a long-term contract would not be in the best interest of the Milwaukee Bucks if they have real aspirations to be a contender, because it would limit our ability to obtain real stars and solid role players.

 

He's mediocre statistically, mediocre as far as team play, and if we commit a big long contract to him we will likely continue to be a mediocre team. I think the fact that he plays astoundingly on occasion kind of tricks people into thinking he's a star when that clearly is not the case.

 

Pretty much this. Obviously Jennings isn't the only problem. The Bucks as a whole lack an identity, with no consistency on offense or defense, and the two players that are supposed to be the stars of this team (Jennings, Ellis) aren't capable of carrying a team. 

 

I don't necessarily have a problem re-signing Jennings, but again it depends on what it's going to end up costing us. Because we don't want to end up getting stuck in a situation like we did with, say, Michael Redd, where we gave him a huge amount of money and it crippled us for the duration of his contract.

 

Like SillyBilly said, statistically and otherwise, there just isn't enough there to warrant giving him a big long term contract. If the price is right, then by all means. Otherwise, we should cut him loose at the end of this season, or risk suffering in mediocrity for years to come.