17 replies to this topic

[justryod3]

we are creeping up on Indiana, only a couple behind the bulls so tomorrow night is a important game. i love the way we have been playing lately and playing the way we are right now i feel like we can beat anyone.

[Kevin]

I'm glad the Bucks came out with such urgency tonight and really took it to a Pistons team that had killed us in the previous meeting in Milwaukee. The bench played extremely well, and Jennings had that monster third quarter, which he's been doing quite a bit recently. 

 

I'm not sure we can pass either Chicago or Indiana in the standings, though. Even if we do momentarily, Rose and Granger should be back for their respective teams sometime after the All Star break, and while they'll have their growing pains as far as getting back on the court, getting back in game shape and fitting in with their teammates again, they have strong claims to the upper seeds in the East.

 

The Bucks have an (easier) schedule, so hopefully we can capitalize on that and push for an upper seed, but it's going to be tough.

[Ted]

I dont see any way where the Bucks catch the Pacers. They're defense is dominant and when Granger gets back they'll have some more offense. Bulls is feasible but even that I doubt, this Bucks team is too inconsistent but if they are trying to catch anyone now it's the Lou Williams-less Hawks and I think they have a strong chance to get ahead of them in the standings, still havent even played head to head yet this year so if they win those matchups it'll be huge

[justryod3]

thats ridiculous to say we cant catch the bulls or pacers, we are just barely over the half way mark being only 2 and half down to chicago and 1 behind the pacers. we have the game tonight to bring us very close to both and look what happened last year when rose came back from injury and same will happen with granger considering george has been the go to guy they will both have to completely adjust and it will throw both teams off.  we have been playing far more consistent since boylan than i have ever seen.

[Patti]

That win last night against "bigger" team could help these guys understand what they need to do against teams like the Bulls & Pacers.  Best way to learn is by doing and they did a fine job last night.

 

They spent a lot of energy on that win, I just hope they all have some gas left in the tank for the Bulls and Knicks.  Getting everyone involved might just facilitate that.

[Ted]

thats ridiculous to say we cant catch the bulls or pacers, we are just barely over the half way mark being only 2 and half down to chicago and 1 behind the pacers. we have the game tonight to bring us very close to both and look what happened last year when rose came back from injury and same will happen with granger considering george has been the go to guy they will both have to completely adjust and it will throw both teams off.  we have been playing far more consistent since boylan than i have ever seen.

 

Consistent teams dont lose to the Cavaliers when they are leading by 15+ in the 2nd half. They are certainly improved under Boylan but they are still inconsistent. Pacers are better than the Bucks right now plain and simple. They have the best frontcourt in the Eastern Conference and play exceptional team defense. Granger coming back could hinder them but he will most likely bring that extra offensive surge that they are currently lacking since Im guessing he will end up with the 6th man role.

[Kevin]

thats ridiculous to say we cant catch the bulls or pacers, we are just barely over the half way mark being only 2 and half down to chicago and 1 behind the pacers. we have the game tonight to bring us very close to both and look what happened last year when rose came back from injury and same will happen with granger considering george has been the go to guy they will both have to completely adjust and it will throw both teams off.  we have been playing far more consistent since boylan than i have ever seen.

 

Obviously there'll be an adjustment period when Granger and Rose come back for their respective teams. But once they figure things out, both teams are capable of being much more dangerous than the Bucks. We know how good Rose is, and while I feel Granger is overrated, he's still a solid scorer, and the Pacers need someone who can score. 

 

And while this is in hindsight, just look at how Milwaukee has played so far tonight. When Chicago brings their A game, they're a much superior team over us.

[Kevin]

Like I said, this game kind of shows just how big of a gap there is between Chicago and Milwaukee, even with two wins on their turf. And not having Sanders is no excuse for losing this badly. 

[Patti]

And not having Sanders is no excuse for losing this badly. 

I don't know...when someone doesn't show up for bowling and the team looses, it's always that guy's fault!

DAMN YOU LARRY SANDERS!

[justryod3]

cavs arent nearly as bad as their record shows, come backs happen in the nba simple as that whether your the bucks or the heat, we have come back on teams countless amount of times and we have ESPECIALLY made come backs on the "elite" teams so your whole point going around the cavs games is just stupid

 

series is tied 2-2 with chicago saying they are better is equally as stupid just because they  "brought their a game last night" doesnt mean they are better that means that the bucks didnt play as well as they should and can. and larry is a HUGE difference whether you wanna say its no excuse or not, when he is in everyone on the offensive end fears him in the paint and the ones who dont fear him get swatted.

[Kevin]

cavs arent nearly as bad as their record shows, come backs happen in the nba simple as that whether your the bucks or the heat, we have come back on teams countless amount of times and we have ESPECIALLY made come backs on the "elite" teams so your whole point going around the cavs games is just stupid

 

series is tied 2-2 with chicago saying they are better is equally as stupid just because they  "brought their a game last night" doesnt mean they are better that means that the bucks didnt play as well as they should and can. and larry is a HUGE difference whether you wanna say its no excuse or not, when he is in everyone on the offensive end fears him in the paint and the ones who dont fear him get swatted.

 

The point is that the Bucks are STILL giving up games like that to teams like the Cavaliers, and even if their record is better than indicated (which I actually agree with), they're still not a great team. We're supposed to win games like that. We're not an elite team, and every win counts. No one said we're the only team to give up a big comeback, but the good teams in the NBA rarely allow it to happen, whereas the Bucks have had trouble closing out games most of the season.

 

And you're truly blind if you watched last night's game and still think that we're in Chicago's league. The simple fact that they have a better record than us despite not having their best player (Rose) should say it all about them. They're one of the best defensive teams in the league, and their offense is nothing to scoff at either, especially considering, again, not having Rose.

 

Larry is obviously a difference maker, but guess what? So is Boozer and Rose for Chicago. Injuries, sickness, whatever, it's no excuse. We flat-out lost last night, and lost badly. Jennings losing his composure and getting kicked out should have said it all about last night's game. 

[SillyBilly]

As long as the two 'best' players on our team are Jennings and Ellis the Milwaukee Bucks are going to be a weird team that is hard to figure out. When the Bucks are playing really well they can hang with anyone in the league, when they're not they look plain awful as they did against the Bulls. This dramatic swing in performance even from quarter to quarter has to be more pronounced in the bucks than any team in the league. It all stems from the way Jennings and Ellis play the game. They are what is right with this team but they are also what is wrong with this team. Offensively they rely on a lot of jumpshots and difficult drives created by their quickness. They can certainly create their own shots but a lot of times they Are difficult shots and both are very streaky shooters. On the defensive end they are both gamblers opting very often to aggressively go after steals which can obviously pay off but in the event that they miss their overplay allows the ball handler to go by them. This would all be fine if either of them consistently contributed in ways other than scoring points and getting steals, but neither of them do. While both at times make nice passes, neither of them exhibit good vision on a consistent basis and when they aren't shooting well they often allow the offense to stagnate. If you really pay attention on the defensive end Ellis and Jennings can be maddening at times with how poorly they stay with and in front of the player they are guarding. It's basically a wash between stellar scoring and forcing turnovers and missing shots and defensive assignments. I guess the result is a little better than having a more steady but less spectacular guy like beno udrih taking the reins, but I doubt it makes much difference in the end.

[Patti]

I agree with your analysis of the Jennings/Ellis combo.....

here comes the but...but I don't think you can take their game out of context.

Small forward: LRMBM 24 min. 2-4 4pts & Dunleavy 26 min. 11 pts.

Power forward: Ersan 38 min. 6-18 high scorer at 18 pts 7 rebounds 5 fouls

Center: Dalembert had better stats than Ersan except he doesn't shoot the 3 (thank heaven he doesn't try).
Udoh 12.5 min 2 free throw - 2 pts. 0 rebounds

Bench guard to replace BJ & Ellis ... Beno 22 min. 2-6 for 4pts. 2 asst. 3 foul, 3 TO

It's the NBA and it takes a TEAM to win. Pretty poor TEAM effort against Chicago.

[SillyBilly]

I agree with your analysis of the Jennings/Ellis combo.....

here comes the but...but I don't think you can take their game out of context.

Small forward: LRMBM 24 min. 2-4 4pts & Dunleavy 26 min. 11 pts.

Power forward: Ersan 38 min. 6-18 high scorer at 18 pts 7 rebounds 5 fouls

Center: Dalembert had better stats than Ersan except he doesn't shoot the 3 (thank heaven he doesn't try).
Udoh 12.5 min 2 free throw - 2 pts. 0 rebounds

Bench guard to replace BJ & Ellis ... Beno 22 min. 2-6 for 4pts. 2 asst. 3 foul, 3 TO

It's the NBA and it takes a TEAM to win. Pretty poor TEAM effort against Chicago.

 

Hi Patti,

 

You're right the supporting cast certainly isnt stellar offensively.

 

But Jennings was 6-18 and ellis was 4-12. You could look at it and say that other teammates weren't offering enough offensive support, or you could look at it and say that Ellis and Jennings, who control the offensive flow for the most part, weren't creating enough opportunities for their teammates. For instance, had Udrih, Dunleavy, LRMAM, Dalembert or any combination of Bucks players taken those 30 shots rather than BJEllis, the results from a make/miss standpoint would have probably been better. People say that Jennings and Ellis are forced to take this many shots because other players aren't willing to shoot or create a good shot - I say that is a half truth as the supporting cast isn't particularly strong but Beno Udrih manages to have a significantly higher assist rate than Jennings or Ellis in his limited minutes.

 

To put it more simply, the team shoots 43.5%, but the two players taking the majority of the shots shoot around 40%. That should leave people scratching their heads a bit especially considering that the bucks aren't especially good in the paint. It should at least make one ponder that perhaps some other members of the bucks should be taking a few more shots each night.

[Ted]

Hi Patti,

 

You're right the supporting cast certainly isnt stellar offensively.

 

But Jennings was 6-18 and ellis was 4-12. You could look at it and say that other teammates weren't offering enough offensive support, or you could look at it and say that Ellis and Jennings, who control the offensive flow for the most part, weren't creating enough opportunities for their teammates. For instance, had Udrih, Dunleavy, LRMAM, Dalembert or any combination of Bucks players taken those 30 shots rather than BJEllis, the results from a make/miss standpoint would have probably been better. People say that Jennings and Ellis are forced to take this many shots because other players aren't willing to shoot or create a good shot - I say that is a half truth as the supporting cast isn't particularly strong but Beno Udrih manages to have a significantly higher assist rate than Jennings or Ellis in his limited minutes.

 

To put it more simply, the team shoots 43.5%, but the two players taking the majority of the shots shoot around 40%. That should leave people scratching their heads a bit especially considering that the bucks aren't especially good in the paint. It should at least make one ponder that perhaps some other members of the bucks should be taking a few more shots each night.

 

 

Beno's assist rating is highest on the team because he plays the majority of minutes with Mike Dunleavy who is hands down their best shooter and it's not really even close. Ersan can really only shoot on the pick and pop or a drive and kick, Dunleavy is best coming off screens but he is also capable of scoring off of the dribble. None of the Bucks guards are especially great passers. Ellis is probably the best of the three but he also is the most careless. Most of Jennings/Udrih's assists are just made baskets by Mike Dunleavy on that Y screen or Ersan on the pick and pop. Neither are great passing NBA point guards.

[SillyBilly]

Beno's assist rating is highest on the team because he plays the majority of minutes with Mike Dunleavy who is hands down their best shooter and it's not really even close. Ersan can really only shoot on the pick and pop or a drive and kick, Dunleavy is best coming off screens but he is also capable of scoring off of the dribble. None of the Bucks guards are especially great passers. Ellis is probably the best of the three but he also is the most careless. Most of Jennings/Udrih's assists are just made baskets by Mike Dunleavy on that Y screen or Ersan on the pick and pop. Neither are great passing NBA point guards.

While playing with Dunleavy is a factor in improving Udrih's assist numbers it isn't the sole reason he is more successful in that category than the other guards. The minutes Mike and Beno play don't perfectly overlap and the rotations have been fluctuating all season. Jennings and Ellis are probably on the court with Mike just as often as Beno has been. Also, Ersan is the recipient of a lot of assists in the paint as well pops/kicks, he's a pretty 'assistable' player overall so I don't think this is a valid excuse. He is routinely missed on kick out opportunities, and could certainly be set-up and utilized better though the Bucks are improving with this lately and his attempts are going up (probably a product of Boylan).

 

Another partial explanation for Beno's higher assist rate is that he is less capable of creating his own shot than BJEllis so he has to pass. There's some truth to that.  The primary explanation though is that Beno is simply a much more consistent facilitator and puts much more effort into it each possession than the other guards and its not even really debatable. Im not going to say he is a better passer, because I think BJEllis are just as capable of being good passers, but they don't put the focus and effort on ball movement that he consistently does. He is successful at getting assists with a variety of players scoring on the other end and the numbers show it. He has shown better vision and ball movement improves in general when he is on the court, though he does take chances and turns the ball over a bit. He just plain passes more. One crucial situation in particular in which he has been better is making a decision when he draws an extra defender. He has good awareness of inside dish or perimeter kick opportunities when he draws that extra man. BJellis don't make these passes enough, just watch for yourself the next few games when they draw extra defenders they often opt to still take the shot themselves or dribble/pass out and reset even when good passing opportunities are there. Sometimes they recognize the open man too late or aren't crafty enough to get the pass through/out. There's a bit of tunnel vision on their drive attempts a lot of the time. 

 

Jennings and Ellis should be the starters, there's no debate about that. But I see dramatic room for improvement in ball movement when they are on the floor. Shot attempts for BJEllis should decrease slightly, and shot attempts for the rest of the team should increase slightly, which will lead to an improvement in fg%, assists, and consistency. The Bucks don't have a single player that can consistently score in iso situations, so there is really no choice but to move the ball a lot and create opportunities through movement..... if they want to be a good team that is. If an old and slow Steve Nash could get the lowly suns to .500 last year in a tougher western conference by virtue of ball movement, then the more talented Bucks could certainly do better if they move the ball more effectively.

[Ted]

You are right but then we get back to the same problem. It's tough to space the floor when you have guys who are not floor spacers. When the Beno, Jennings, Dunleavy combination is on the court they do a great job of moving the ball and spacing the floor because they all have to be respected for their outside shot. Other than Ersan there is no1 else in the rotation where a defender needs to be concerned about their man hitting from outside. The Bucks also do a terrible job of utilizing the corner three which is the most important shot on the court.

[SillyBilly]

You are right but then we get back to the same problem. It's tough to space the floor when you have guys who are not floor spacers. When the Beno, Jennings, Dunleavy combination is on the court they do a great job of moving the ball and spacing the floor because they all have to be respected for their outside shot. Other than Ersan there is no1 else in the rotation where a defender needs to be concerned about their man hitting from outside. The Bucks also do a terrible job of utilizing the corner three which is the most important shot on the court.

Yea I agree, depending on who is in the lineup creating opportunities through ball movement is easier said than done, but I still think we can do a much better job of it if the guys bringing the ball up the court give more effort. Ersan's numbers have been much better since Boylan took over and I think his revival has just as much to do with Ellis and Jennings making a concerted effort to get him the ball (under Boylans direction) as it does with improved play on Ersans behalf. Like most players on the roster Ersan is an opportunist scorer, he has limited capability to create his own shot, but if we can manage to set him up for 15 shots a game, our odds of scoring points are going to be better than if Ellis is taking 15 shots given his typical shot selection this season.

 

The shot distribution should take a slight shift in favor of guys not named BJEllis, but in order for this to happen BJEllis need to actively facilitate scoring opportunities for a group teammates who aren't capable of creating their own shot. Its no simple task but thats what good pgs do - make their teammates look better than they are. I don't think it would make us contenders or anything, but teams who work well together and move the ball a lot are definitely more fun to watch. And obviously If Harris or Dunleavy  started instead of LRMAM, and Udrih instead of Ellis, it would go a long way to help things flow better offensively.